As to Farkel's post: Theism implies that God is active in human affairs, albeit invisibly, while deism implies that God is not at all involved in human affairs. In my point of view, and given only those two choices, the evidence (or rather the lack of evidence) is overwhelmingly in favor of the latter. This may be your experience, but the experience of many millions of persons, including myself, is, clearly, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the conclusion that God is active in the affairs of humans. Many persons have allowed their bitter experience with the Witnesses to blind themselves to objectively looking at all theistic world views.
Jerry Bergman
JoinedPosts by Jerry Bergman
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Jerry Bergman
funkyderek : As to
"If we didn't find it pleasurable we wouldn't do it. If we didn't do it, we wouldn't reproduce"
my response is we must have been created to find it pleasurable because if we didn't find it pleasurable we wouldn't ever have done it (and thus we would not have reproduced in the first place). Therefore, genes for enjoying sex must have existed from the beginning. Also, I know of no evidence that indicates that any animal enjoys sex for similar reasons. All the evidence is that it is instinctual, programmed, and not indulged in for pleasure. If any one knows of scientific research that supports the conclusion that animals enjoy sex for similar reasons, please inform the group.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 18 December 2002 9:54:51
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 18 December 2002 9:57:23
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Jerry Bergman
Gumby I stand by my original comment. I have come to the conclusion that some of the criticism by the Watchtower against many churches is at least partly valid. I did not say "churches certainly advocate living loosely with no moral resraint [sic]" I said that their sin is not primarily one of commission but primarily one of omission.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 17 December 2002 10:4:50
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Jerry Bergman
My concern is, is theism true? If so than maybe God expects us to do something (or not do certain things) as all major theistic religions teach (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). Is it not wise to at least explore that possibility? I don't mean a few conversations or personal thoughts or conclusions, but put some real effort to try to answer that question. I have for years done this through personal study and college coursework, and have come to the conclusion that the fundamentals of Christianity are true and that a God exists who has certain expectations of us. Yet when one expresses these conclusions he or she is condemned as intolerant, hateful, and narrow-minded as Sirona did. I am not condemning someone else's beliefs, only expressing my conclusions that I arrived at after decades of study and study of the scientific literature. Also as a result of my study at a medical college (10 years and three degrees so far beyond my second doctors and masters degrees) I have concluded from a review of the scientific research that relying on crystals for healing instead of modern medicine, and concluding new age ideas will cure one of disease, could do a great deal of harm (and can be lethal). Has anyone out there seen one die of diabetes when insulin could prolong their life for decades? It is not a pretty picture. If anyone knows of a scientific study that demonstrates scientifically that crystals can cure disease in a placebo controlled study, please let me know and I will take back my words. I am unaware of a single study (and I have looked in the scientific medical literature for one). Does anyone think that causing someone to believe that an unproven or worse treatment works and, as a result of following this advise they die, is moral behavior? I happen to believe it is not. I realize that I will be condemned by some as self-righteous for this conclusion, but this is my conclusion (and I believe to act otherwise would be wrong). Someone once said that 90% of our problems in life are caused by bad choices that result from lack of knowledge, bad advise or false conclusions. This may be true.
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Tell about the good JWs
by Skeptic inmost of the jws i met were sincere people.
not perfect, i have my horror stories too, but most were decent people.
i am not discounting the horrible things i hear on this forum.
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Jerry Bergman
Etude
Could you explain your comment about Nathan Knorr
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Jerry Bergman
Wow I never expected this much response. When I critique the Watchtower I get lambasted and when I indicate some positive points I get lambasted as well! This may say more about the responder than me.
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Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
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Jerry Bergman
I have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed Witnesses. Some people I have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the Watchtower. Most all of my family have left now (not due to me as I was cut off from them for years) and many others I know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals. Also, as time goes by, I am finding some of the WT ideas have some truth in them. I have been a lay speaker and Sunday school teacher in the Methodist Church for many years (And have been a member for 17 years now, almost as long as I was a Witness) and I find many in the church don't have a clue as to basic Christian morality. Many young people are or were fornicators and adulterers and this should not surprise one. I have, in 17 years, never heard even one sermon in this church condemning adultery (although I have given one). We had a controversy recently related to this. Our last pastor (a great guy, a Harvard grad and a Ph.D.) said he would not marry persons with one address (they could live together and fornicate all they wished, they just could not flaunt it) and some condemned him for intolerance! In my college teaching we cover the health problems of promiscuous sexual behavior ( it's a major killer) and the problem is as bad in churched as unchurched people. Morals just are not taught in many churches, thus members end up with a large number of broken marriages and all kind of health problems.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 16 December 2002 9:6:39
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 16 December 2002 9:8:0
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 16 December 2002 9:11:21
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I urge You /Theocratic Warfare
by metatron ini strongly urge you to look at and download the document called "lying in court - theocratic warfare strategy" - over at freeminds.org.
this is a lengthy and careful analysis of the watchtower society's practice of .
deliberate lying to the public - and in courtrooms.
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Jerry Bergman
Thanks all for all the very helpful comments about the theocratic war doctrine! When one sees it used in court it makes one sick! As to the comment "Sorry, this is typical Bergman rhetoric and virtually valueless, it is not "careful analysis" it is an agenda driven polemic" could you explain what you mean and provide documentation??? What is the agenda you refer to? My agenda is to understand and help those involved in the Watchtower. Is this wrong? Should I lie and try to claim that the doctrine does not exist?? Do you think that the doctrine does not exist? How can one deny this doctrine? It is in print cited many times from the 1930s to a few years ago. Check out my 40 page article on Randy's website (http://www.freeminds.org/index.html) and any criticism is welcome as this topic will be a full length book soon, so I need feedback now (no name calling. Such is not helpful, but cogent documented feedback is very helpful).
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Why Jehovahs Witnesses have mental problems!
by Beans2 in.
this is very interesting,.
http://www.premier1.net/~raines/mental.html.
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Jerry Bergman
I agree that "labeling", is a problem but the title is a broad statement and does NOT claim all Witnesses have mental problems, but is a general statement about the problem addressed in the article. Effective titles must be short and are designed to lead the reader into the article which goes into more detail. I have never said anywhere that ALL Jehovah's Witnesses have mental problems and have clearly said the opposite. Several new studies will be published soon that document further the seriousness of this problem in the Watchtower organization.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 9 December 2002 20:32:51
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Lust For Glory Alienating The Majority?
by Englishman inif i had ever been a victim of abuse, and the offence had been perpetrated by a member of the jw religion, then silent lambs would be the best thing ever to appear, both on tv and in person.. if i had a close friend or relative who had gone through the same trauma, then i would feel almost the same emotion.. now i do not know, obviously, what percentage of persons on this site have been victims of abuse by jw's, but my guess is that this percentage is relatively small.
so whilst most of us feel very empathetic to abuse victims, not that great a proportion of us have experienced it personally.. however, i do know that many of us have suffered trauma because of other forms of abuse by this organisation, including disfellowshipping which has caused many to be rejected by their loved ones.
whilst it is not possible to measure this form of abuse against that of child abuse, it is nonetheless a type of abuse that most of us are familiar with on a personal level, it's also a type of abuse that is still going on for many who post here.
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Jerry Bergman
Larc Well put. We need to be more positive about each other and less critical (or at least more tactful). We all have our horror stories to tell and our grievances, but this does not justify lambasting each other. I still do not understand what the commotion is about. PS Would anyone like to hear my story??? We should do a book of all of our stories (it could be a best sell)